Heterodox Americana
Heterodox Americana
Complicated (re-)Emergence and the Vaccine Dilemma
Going from quarantine to socializing again has been super weird for lots of people. That, plus... what to do about this vaccine thing, anyway? To vaccinate or not to vaccinate? That is the question.
Welcome to heterodox Americana. This is a show about thinking outside the box, and examining the conventional wisdom that informs how we think and shapes how we see the world around us. The question that we're ultimately trying to get at is, how do our unexamined ideas impact our ability to thrive as human beings. And it's our intention to unpack some of these ideas, take a fresh heterodox perspective, that hopefully leads us somewhere new. My name is Raphael Freeman, and I'm one of your hosts.
Angie Backues:And I'm Angie Backus, another one of your hosts.
Raphael Freeman:So people are getting vaccinated. How about that?
Angie Backues:Yeah. As in people like that, you know, or
Raphael Freeman:I'm just saying it's happening. It's rolling out? Yeah. Also people that I know, and people that I don't know, where they go without saying, people that I know are doing it. And I also have some, some people that I know who are absolutely not doing it, where he's telling this whole thing.
Angie Backues:Oh, I'm a pro. pandemic vaxxer. I think I want people to get it,
Unknown:I got it.
Angie Backues:It's gonna, you know, it's gonna, I think it'll keep me safe. It'll keep my family safe. And pretty soon, I'm going to go back into my office. So
Raphael Freeman:are you looking forward to that?
Angie Backues:Well, that was one of the things that I think is has come up with the vaccination, what it means to start to turn turn your life back outside, rather than being inside? And how people are working with that these days. I think I have mixed feelings. What about you,
Raphael Freeman:mixed feelings about going back into your office,
Angie Backues:like you going back out into the world or moving outside of wherever you're, you've stayed isolated?
Raphael Freeman:You know, so I have a personality disorder. I've never said this on the show before, but I have a personality disorder. It's called schizotypal personality disorder. SPD for short, right? Part of like SPD groups, especially on Reddit, but other places on the internet to my psychologist, over 2021 confirmed that I met the disorder level. And I gotta say, you know, for, for people who have SPD, I'm on the rocket inside,
Unknown:like, I'm, oh, rocking,
Raphael Freeman:I'm rocking it, right. I mean, for some people, it's, it's, it's, it's crushing, it's detrimental to just their well being. For a lot of SPD people, it's not like part of the part of the disorder is not caring. It's like, it's like, I don't care. And that's true for a lot of people that I talked to. It's also true for me, most of the ways, most of the ways, and so it's not quite true. The exception is my relationship with with progeny, but most of the ways that that I'm deficient, I don't really care. So here's some real life examples. So people with schizotypal personality disorders tend to enjoy just fewer things, and they enjoy things less. And I'm not sure if I've ever said it, you know, on the podcast, or at least in this context, but there are like lots of things that humans find enjoyable that I don't like live music, and concerts, which sort of, you know, I mean, that's almost the same thing. Although there are a lot of music performances that are not concerts right. So I wouldn't do any of that. Let flowers or dance any kind of dance. I really like to watch dance, not ballet, not breakdancing anything, right. And I also don't enjoy dancing that much, pretty much not at all. I'll do it. But I don't enjoy it. And you know, when I was younger, I realized that there was a reason that people love them so much and I was like this is a waste of time but turns out that my brain is wired and however it's wired and whatever. I don't want to go on too much about SPD but, but in terms of what it means to get back to life as it was. I don't miss it. I don't miss the socialization. I don't miss the people. I don't miss my friends. Actually. I don't miss it. So here's something about me. I don't miss people ever right? I don't miss my dad, mom. I'll miss people when they're far away and knows so for me Um, you know, I don't know if that seems cool, but you know, it's just how it works for me. There's no element other than, like, Decent Espresso varieties, which I can't get home in the same way. Because I don't have I don't have a, you know, $6,000 best machine and $1,000 grinder. But if I did, I would say, I'm set. So, you know, there's nothing about the sort of, you know, the outside world that I really miss. There's nothing that I'm eager to run back to. There are lots of people that have contacted me who are like, you know, hey, we should hang out. And I'm like, Huh,
Unknown:should we though?
Raphael Freeman:So I don't have that eagerness at all, to get back to anything. I'm deeply, completely satisfied and enjoy myself sitting in front of a computer.
Unknown:Yeah, wow.
Angie Backues:I guess this could you know, be a show that SPD could be it could be a show about vaccines, it could be a show about what it means for us to emerge back into the world. You know, you're, I think you're on the extreme end of what it has been like for a year of isolation and noting how little you enjoy the outside world. I think you knew this probably yes. about yourself.
Raphael Freeman:Yeah. But so yes, but I had a really good time during quarantine. Okay. Really get that,
Angie Backues:but and was the good time because there was no pressure around any of that, or expectation?
Raphael Freeman:No, I just discovered so much about myself and some things about marketing. And you know, I had some big revelations with with meditation, that kind of stuff. You know, it was less about pressure and expectation, and more about just the fact that I got into a groove that was was really groovy. And I just didn't want it to stop. Yeah, yeah.
Angie Backues:Yeah, it sounds like, you know, you've had a good pandemic year.
Raphael Freeman:Yeah. I mean, I don't want to get lost in this. But you What was I mean, are you eager to, I mean, you were started with this, but I didn't have a clear sense as to whether you're going to get back or
Angie Backues:I'm mixed. I'm having conflict about it. But one of the things that I've been noting is, as I've talked to people is there, this is out there, they there are people that have discovered that their lives pre pandemic, were kind of on this automatic pilot around their activity. And when that got shut down, I think initially, a lot of people felt the loss of that. And it was pretty, it was pretty stark around, but life before and after the shutdown, and quarantine. And now after it's gone on for a while I'm talking to people that realize that what they were doing with their life, the way it was structured before quarantine was, was this really hurried way of living. And some of them have decided that that was kind of an unthoughtful life, and they hadn't really paid attention to what they were doing. They just knew that they needed to do. And after a year of this, it's a lot of people I've noted have been paying attention to, you know, what they really want in terms of activity or social social situations, and are confused because they've identified in this really active way for so long. And now it's being they're negotiating or renegotiating and feeling self conscious about it feeling a little bit taken by their lack of wanting to, you know, jump back in, and even feel sometimes guilty about not wanting to re engage all the stuff that they knew. And I would put myself in that camp. I don't think I was ever particularly really busy. But you know, I think one of the things that I've noted my life before quarantine was a lot of it. My social engagements were dinner out. I live in Philadelphia, there's so many great restaurants here and I like to explore new food and I like to try new drinks and I find that that's a really nice way to connect with other people is over food and going out to a nice meal and, or even, you know, a fun meal. And so that's I spent a ton of time doing that and a lot of money doing it. Yeah, and I think when this whole thing shut down, I missed that a lot. And, but now I'm finding, you know, relaxation and figuring out meal planning. And I'm also really taken with the amount of money that is not going out every week around buying food out. And it's shifted my, my thoughts, you know, around how I want to do this going forward.
Raphael Freeman:So it sounds like you're mixed. Your, your, your mix, I can't hold on the mixed strategy. But it sounds like your mixed position has to do with some of that sort of standing social pressure that had to do with how you related to your friends and how you related socially in the world. But also, this new discovery of, you know, the things that you can do as alternative like planning meals and having enjoying your time not being out is that like a fair sort of assessment of that how that mix works?
Angie Backues:Yeah, I think it's fair, I'm not, or enjoying my time not being out. That's, that's still I have to figure that out. Because I don't want to completely isolate myself anymore. But what I've noticed is, is what I appreciate, can appreciate and where my mind is going lately is having people in my home, or going to someone else's home. And I think part of that is because it was just so taken from us that that year of nobody gets in anybody else's bubble, or pot as it were, and what it's like to have people step through the threshold threshold of my front door, it feels so nice. And it feels the same when I go to someone else's place. So maybe it's not, you know, the really beautiful restaurants. But I think maybe, you know, thinking of just you know, fixing a meal and having people for dinner, or vice versa,
Raphael Freeman:introducing some variety.
Unknown:Yes.
Raphael Freeman:They're the Tony Robbins types out there. Tony Robbins types of Tony talks about these six human needs. And they are, at least in his formulation, the six human needs that, you know, the way that he puts it, I should, I should say from from from, from the get go, is that what Tony Robbins does is he just adapts something that already came from Laszlo. It's really, Maslow's Hierarchy just sort of adapted and made, like, you know, like more digestible, but it goes the other six human needs. And the top two are the first two or both the need for security or stability. And then right after that is the need for variety. Sometimes he frames that in terms of certainty and uncertainty. But one of the things that he noticed that these are in some ways, they're they're in Contra position to each other in opposition to each other, that we the things that give us variety, are different than the things that give us stability, but too much stability, and then we become bored, too much variety, and then we feel out of control. And then we need more stability again. So there's a tug of war between our need for variety and our need for certainty or stability. The other six, you know, the other four, whatever, that's a different show. But this sort of human need for variety is a real thing. And, and I certainly get especially like if anything, even with the sort of global uncertainty of what was happening in the world, and what's happening in the economy and what's gonna happen to outcomes and sicknesses and deaths, and so on and so forth. There's a lot of uncertainty that's happening in that realm. But for so many people in the personal realm, their lives were kind of the same day in and day out and had a lot of certainty of what Tuesday was going to look like. Because Monday look the same way and last Friday look the same way. And, you know, until Yeah, I get it, I get the desire for, for that kind of variety to come and knew. I was just talking to an old friend who was really looking forward to he lives in the middle of I don't know the planes right in the middle. So I shouldn't put it this way in my head and my East Coast head and my East Coast brain. Everything between California and Pennsylvania is just like one flat plane. I know that Chicago's in the middle, like I know that sort of theoretically, but my geography so but like this is all squares in there. Oh, rectangles, okay. Except Nevada has a weird shape, I think or Arizona when I'm anyway. It's mostly rectangles. It's like the east coast in California. And they're like two states north of California. But like, Who cares? It's just like coffee or something. Right? That's my, that's my marriage,
Unknown:my family.
Angie Backues:I'm so bad at geography.
Raphael Freeman:But so he lives in one of these rectangles. And he was like, really looking forward. Yeah, he lives in one of the rectangles in the middle. That's a. And you know, here's what I find to for the people who live in the middle rectangles. And I know you're out there. I know they're listening. They know that they live in one of the middle rectangles. Yeah, I mean, it's not like they don't know, like they know. Right. So they have ideas about the East Coast. And that's some of it's truly East Coast at heart.
Angie Backues:I just don't know that they know it was a rectangle. I mean, now they do. They can call it a rectangle. Now. I don't think they were calling it rectangle Boston map.
Raphael Freeman:Okay, my only loss here. Yeah, part of my add is I'll get lost anywhere. And I enjoy it right. Don't get me talking about hot dogs.
Unknown:So he, he's living in that Mexico,
Raphael Freeman:he lives in a rectangle, and
Unknown:Kansas, Kansas got it. That that correcting
Raphael Freeman:that particular rectangle. And he saw all of this to say he was looking forward to going out to a restaurant because he hadn't been out in a year. And that need for variety is real. There's a long way to say that I was able to, I think just yesterday, meet up with, you know, an old buddy who sort of like a linguistic twin of mine, he has lots of linguistic interests that overlap with mine, weirdly, our competition wants and he slightly nudged me on, it made me want to like anyway. But a really cool guy is the person who Jeremiah's his name, he's the person with whom I probably have the most linguistic interest with. And another, I guess, acquaintance is probably the better word. But, you know, another really good smart guy that I had met, probably close to 18 years ago. And we all got together and talked to talk politics, mostly, but also like, talk about some spirituality stuff. And that type of variety was good for me, especially, you know, one because I hadn't been I mean, we're out in the park, which feels, you know, I liked the parks, enough city parks, were out in the park and got to talk to politics and just sort of you know, was were able to ideate kind of off each other. And that was really cool, too. So this is one of the human needs probably diminished for me that need for variety. But I totally get the impulse of people or like, pull him up in a hair and me looks like need, I gotta do something different. That's a legit thing. And
Angie Backues:so quickly, I'm just wondering as, as this SPD, how was it? I mean, it sounds like you're talking about is a positive experience.
Unknown:Oh, yeah. Yeah,
Raphael Freeman:it was it was great. I, the dynamic was, was really cool in such a way that it's that type of synergy is, is relatively rare for me. I think we were sort of politically close to each other, but not quite in the same position. But there were like no ideologues amongst us, right. Like, they're, you know, I mean, when I say no ideologues, it's like, people have a general sense of how I show up, but I'm not all one way, right? I'm, yeah, I'm not all the way. They weren't all one way. It's the whole nuance thing. And that's always refreshing. You know, it's refreshing amongst two people. But amongst three, you get a sort of synergy. That's,
Angie Backues:but I was considering you had mentioned, you know, no, like, there's no desire for social interaction. But it sounds like there's an openness when there's this kind of synergy. And that you found that to be engaging after this long year.
Raphael Freeman:Yeah. I mean, there's, I don't miss it. Right. And there's certainly not like an overwhelming urge. I've been fortunate enough to have a friend group that, you know, if I do acquiesce to the idea of Sure, let's do something social. I can count on my friend group enough to be like they're going to deliver sort of just like high quality ideas in a way that it's going to be worth my while.
Angie Backues:Yeah, I am. I hear that. I think, you know, as we continue to figure this stuff out. Well, you're you're vaccinated. Right. Are you part of it, too, so you felt safe enough to do it?
Raphael Freeman:Yeah, you know, I don't know if I would have phrased it that way. But yeah, I think that's true. I probably made fun of so far fewer people. Maybe I've met up three times with Pete for maybe before I was vaccinated was outside six feet away the whole time. So
Angie Backues:yeah, it's it's interesting too, because I think people I've had people talk about their experience of being in rooms with vaccinated people, because you know, you can do that now. What it's like to feel the conflict still, because we've been doing something for a year, and we've habituated to something, our brains have said, dangers is more than, you know, four people in a room if you're not six feet apart with the mask on. So people talk about have been talking about this to this idea that even though it's okay, and you know, the CDC says CDC says it's acceptable, the conflict is still happening for people, they they find themselves feeling anxious, and then realize, oh, oh, that's, that's why I'm anxious, because this is not supposed to be happening, although it is, I was talking to my friend, Charmaine, a couple days ago, and in my backyard, and she was talking about that, like, she's going out into the world into these places that, you know, now her family's vaccinated. And it's still she doesn't feel comfortable, she knows that rationally, she is, but she has all this anxiety around, having done something particular in isolation for so long that now being with people feels a little odd.
Raphael Freeman:That to me makes I part of me wants to blame the basal ganglia. The basal ganglia is this part of the brain that is essentially it's responsible for like habit building, and repetitive, like, you know, very various types of memories, right, you know, some memories like your, your, your, your ability to remember how to tie a shoe. And then I think that's called procedural memory. And then you have your ability to remember, like, where you left your keys. Remember what that's called, I want to say operational, but that's probably not it. Either way, you know, memory is one of these, these are things but it seems to be the basal ganglia, part of your brain is responsible for the things that you do repetitively procedural memory, tying your shoe, so on and so forth. And, you know, as we were learning new behaviors, and new modalities of how to interact with each other, which took time and you can remember, in the beginning, it was a lot of resistance, you mean
Angie Backues:resistance in the beginning of the pandemic?
Raphael Freeman:Yes, that's exactly what I mean. There was a lot of resistance around the masks and social, I mean, we saw it right, but especially around the social distance, distancing aspects, lots of resistance, both in the in the in the red states and blue states. And eventually, we hit some point of equilibrium after we'd been doing it enough that the the flip switch, this became the, you know, for all the people were like, hashtag no new normal. This was like the the new normal that emerged, and a new set of behaviors and, and, you know, relatedness, you know, between people, and lots of that is just gets stored in the part of your brain where it's like, I'm doing this set of activities over and over and over again, one hour, the, you know, the, the guidelines have changed, and people have a new some people are like, they can't wait to get back to quote unquote, the way things were. Although hashtag rip the way things were. Hashtag, rip. That's never coming back. Not the way we knew it. But that's neither here nor there. My point is, your brain having made a new set of mental representations about how to relate to one another and to strangers. But that's, that's all. It's gonna feel weird. Now. I feel like I mean, you know, whether you're a germaphobe or not, but people feel a little bit creepier than they used to feel right. Money sits next to you. What, why are you so close?
Angie Backues:Right? Well, I still find myself, you know, even if I'm asked, and have been this whole year, if I'm outside, like, if I'm passing someday I move, you know, on the other side of this, not cross the street, but I move on the other side of the sidewalk, not because I find them dangerous. It's just to you know, respect our space. At my 15 year old was, I was telling her that the CDC guidelines have changed now that if she's out with me, I'm vaccinated. She can't be because she's 15. But she's out with me. We take walks often, she doesn't have to wear a mask. That kid is not going to leave the mask. And so this is the thing to She is like it you know, I told her I said you can take it off and she said no, I'm gonna keep it on
Raphael Freeman:the mask feels comfortable. Now, it's uncomfortable in the beginning now feels like That's right. Well, safety blanket
Angie Backues:what she said and you know, 15 year olds, that's a particular you know, breed right. 15 year olds do these, you know, they're so self conscious anyway, but she was saying she told me yesterday, she said, I remember how embarrassed I was to wear it. Like when we first started wearing them. She said I was so embarrassed, and I just thought this was such a weird thing. And she said And now I've switched now I'm embarrassed almost to not have it on. Right. So she's definitely in her teenage brain has, you know, this makes sense now, and it feels like the way to be outside. And I think for her, it's going to be this very major shift. I mean, we walked around, I didn't have a mask on, and she did.
Raphael Freeman:So you weren't even there in solidarity. You were like,
Unknown:Oh, no, no, no,
Raphael Freeman:you got their own struggles.
Unknown:That's right.
Angie Backues:I mean, you know, I still wear mine. Enough, if I'm gonna be in a crowd of people. And I think that's mostly, you know, I'm vaccinated, but I want other people to feel safe, I don't know who's vaccinated out there. So I, it's kind of a signal for me to, you know, allow people to feel safe around me. You know, when, you know, we live on the East Coast, I mean, here, particularly in our neighborhood, and this neighborhood, there, you know, it's been very massed, there's not really been a lot of issues around around whether or not it should be a part of, of the way people live, it just is, you know, most people in West Philadelphia are walking around with the mask even now. So, you know, I think living here, it's been more of this issue around not wearing the mask than wearing the mask.
Raphael Freeman:It's so you know, like, you talked about the geography of it. And, you know, there are a lot of cultural ties that happen to geography and how people sort of experiences both that sort of like the geographic cultural level, but also like, the political stuff that that happens to a lot of the people who are in this sort of cultural milieu or geographic value, who are like, you know, anti vaxxers, or anti masters tend to do so less for what we might think of as the traditional political split and more for reasons that have to do with how can I put it sorta conspiracy theory type stuff, or conspiracy fears. And, you know, when it's so I'm an apologist, for for most unpopular position, not not because I want to be contrarian, but I have this. For me, one of the things that is really crucial to just for myself to understand is that even people who I think are the most irrational, probably have some rationale. And they're not nearly as rational as we think they are. Although I mean, don't get me wrong, sometimes people are. But a lot of times what's happening is the, the information that they're relying on, is sometimes fundamentally different than the information that somebody else is relying on. And then they have to present like, just what gets it just the inputs are so different. And the inputs are really different now that, you know, I'm a generation X er, and I'm a little bit too young for the Walter Cronkite of the world. I know the name and I sort of know his status in his position, the Dan rather's and the what, like people, my mom would watch, right? Who were crucial in building a set of just like a basis of information that America and across the political spectrum could rely on. that's largely gone, right. And Facebook doesn't help at all right? Facebook doesn't help at all. So So, you know, as we're in our our echo chambers, and it's one thing just in terms of, you know, having the same opinions, you know, regurgitated and federalist, that's one thing that we're all aware of, but but I would say just the sheer points of information that we're using, and what gets through, and then how they gets processed, that's also very, very different for for people, you know, geographically and politically. And then you have to make sense of that information, in light of all the information that has come before it that you've taken. And given that I tend to have sympathy is not the right word. But I tend to be able to see the perspective of people who, who rely just on like a different data set. I don't think it's not really the right word, but they rely on a different information set in order to build a belief, right. So what I'm going to tangent and I'm going to come back, you know, for the non scientists that are out there, which is like most people, you know, I think I know one data scientist, I know chemist to biologists, right? So I know for I think for for people who are like they like their science oh five, right. So this is another data scientists out there as well. No offense to my political scientist friends, because I have a political scientists friend as well. Lots of them, but that's not I want to talk about I feel like I'm in the backpedaling, but here's where here's where I'm going with this. It's when I look at when I look at the something like climate science, or or even Coronavirus science. I know that I don't have the qualifications or even the mental representations to cut to look at those conclusions to look at those studies. I don't mean like reports on studies, I mean, to look at the actual studies, and then come to my own conclusions. I'm simply not I don't have enough information. I don't have enough scaffolding, you know, like it. I don't have an education people that do right. And so in that regard, it comes down to trust, I decided to trust a set of people. And realistically, these are people that are don't even know. But the question at the end of the day is really about who do we decide to trust? And how do we trust? And I, you know, I guess for me, it doesn't, it's not necessarily a straightforward answer, of whom to trust.
Angie Backues:So what do you mean, when you say that? Well,
Raphael Freeman:I guess one of the first people that I learned to trust was like, my mother, right? Yeah, I was young, she knew way more about the world than I did. She was able to answer all my questions. And she's like, really good at that. And whatever. That's like, lots of people, lots of people trust the parents. The parents know that, even if their parents are not experts, right. But as we start to grow up, and as we think, you know, as the, by the time we become adults, lots of times our information that we have, will outstrip and you know, especially given you know, the improvements in education will outstrip the information that is available to our parents. But that doesn't mean that we trust there. Lots of times, it doesn't mean that we trust their opinions list. And on lots of matters, we probably should like, you know what I mean? Like you, my mom wouldn't know. And so this core question as to how do we know who to listen to? How do we know whom to trust? often that doesn't get its own evaluation, we don't really build a model around how do we know whom to trust, but the place that I land? So if I were to look at like I said, I have a lot of sympathy for both sympathy and sort of apologetics for the people who are sort of anti vaccine not not because I agree with their position. But one, I know that they're they're building their corpus of, of information in a different way. But also the the lack of trust is I mean, I think it's justifiable is especially for blacks, right. So if, if the Tuskegee experiment hadn't happened, do you know the Tuskegee experiment? Yes,
Unknown:you could you want to touch on it a bit. Yeah. So for
Raphael Freeman:people, you know, who don't know, I mean, I think this was in making, I want to say to Macon County, Georgia, but even if it wasn't, here's a well, it couldn't have been like Tuskegee, Reza, Tuskegee, Alabama. There's some geography for you. in Tuskegee, there was a syphilis. They wanted to see what are the long term effects of syphilis on a given population. And so instead of treating people even when the the first, one of the earlier treatments for syphilis had to, you know, it was based on Mercury, and had some some negative effects, because Mercury is a heavy metal, but it was a treatment and the effects of the mercury was less than the effects of long term syphilis, which always lead to death. There was a group in Tuskegee that wanted to study the long term effects of syphilis on this black population. And instead of treating them either with the first treatment, which was based on Mercury, or the second treatment, which was way safer, they did this longitudinal study that allowed people to run the they allow the disease to run the course of the people's lives until they died, so they could study the effects. And in compensation, I mean, this is not even compensation because people never agreed they just were never offered proper medical care. But what they did get for, for showing up and allowing their and reporting, you know, their symptoms. They got a lunch and they got a pine box burial. That was that was what they got in return for their involuntary partition participation. And of course, there are things like operation bootstrap that happened in Puerto Rico and you know, where people were women. Were starting realized against their their will. There was another sterilization campaign here on the mainland United States. So it's not like the medical industry, and the United States government doesn't have enough of a record of betrayal and abuse of people who are non white. It's super well established. The it's, it's it's a rampant problem, right. And there's still rapid problems that happen right now, as we speak, in terms of how medicine treats people who aren't white, right? And so the distrust makes total sense. But I get that part. And you can call the people who, who take that that outlook, you can call them conspiracy theorists, if you like. But what we have is an actual, like people conspire, right, it's a word for reason. And we have these sort of historical conspiracies that are real and that people can point to and so, you know, what do you do with that? The thing that's a little bit different about where we are now, one has to do with how broad the scope of where we are now, how much transparency there is, until it's not some little, it's not a little town in Alabama. It's global, it's worldwide. And we can see that the things that are happening in Switzerland and things that are happening in France, or, you know, Thailand, in India, for God's sakes, struggling, that they mirror the things that have happened or are happening here. And that that should provide some transparency, that, you know, people who are, are prone to distrust to say, well, it's it's not about us, this is this is happening everywhere, it looks the same everywhere, especially if you look at news. And if you don't look at news outside the United States, please just, you know, go to BBC calm or, you know, if you speak in other languages, just read the news, I'll tell the United States, but you'll see that it's matching, right, it's matching everywhere. So in this case, it for me comes back to this this question about whom to trust, and how you build that trust. And I think intuitively, we all know that, if, if I were to call my brother, let's say, who's not a carpenter, right, just fill in the blank, if you're gonna call someone who's not a carpenter, like, hey, I want to build a frame for my house. And that person's like, Oh, I can do it. You'd be like, You're, you're not a carpenter. I'm not gonna let you do it. Um, if Lisa della down the road, this is just a name that I picked up. But, you know, if she decided that she could treat my wound, and she's not a medical professional, I mean, we all have a sense that I'm not gonna let you do whatever hooli you're going to do to my wound to like a no, I'm not gonna do that. Right, we that part is clear. Until, whom to trust, I think at the most fundamental level, we sort of get it except for when it comes to this part. And I understand the risks that people are weighing, when what's going to happen in the long run. And I gotta say that as much as you trust, a carpenter for your carpentry, and as much as you, you know, whatever, you get the metaphor, it's because of the amount of transparency because it's happening everywhere. Because German doctors, right, like, who don't have any relationship with United States medical distrust whatsoever, because German scientists and German doctors are coming to the same conclusions. I think it makes sense to, to trust the world. On this, you know, the world scientists in this particular regard, even if the scientists in your own country have betrayed you, or betrayed your community or betrayed your trust. It's simply not that relationship everywhere, and South Korea, and China and like everybody is on the same page with this. And that, for me is enough to say, hey, even if I can interpret the data myself, even if I don't know anything about, you know, Spike proteins or anything else, it seems like the entirety of the world is moving in this direction. And that for me, is tax trustworthy. You're saying
Angie Backues:You're pretty. So your thought is that this vaccination plan is not a worldwide conspiracy?
Raphael Freeman:I really don't think I really don't think that I really don't think there does and but like, Listen, I totally get trust. And it all comes down to trust, whom we trust, and how we're going to build that trust. But in this particular case, I gotta side with I got to start with the medical institutions in foreign countries that have nothing to do with us and are coming to their own conclusions. Yeah,
Angie Backues:I think you know, what you're saying it needs to be you know, It's important that we understand that there's real, there have been real issues and non white communities. And we can't ignore that the people have, you know, they have this history that tells them, this could get really tricky. I think also, you were talking about what we do when we grow up with a story that we have always kind of taken at the face, at face value, it becomes a part of our internal working around how we see the world. And again, you know, giving credence to the truth of all of what has happened in the medical community. But there's also, you know, conspiracies that perhaps we haven't quite unpacked, like it becomes the story that we've lived with for so long. I'll give you an example. I was talking to my mom this morning, actually, she was talking about how she grew up thinking that cats were cats, they animal cat, you know, a domesticated cat. What exactly was it, um, they weren't likeable, and you shouldn't have them, and you certainly shouldn't have them in the house. That was for her growing up. That was what she was taught. Her dad didn't like them. And she realized that for years and years, she had had this adopted belief system that cats were terrible creatures. And, honestly, she was talking about she had just unpacked this not too awful long ago. So it took my mom some time, but she was kind of chuckling about it. But she said, I started thinking cats aren't really, you know, they're not bad. They're just my dad had told me for years that they were. And so she grew up with this negative bias towards cats, until she started unpacking that story and realize that her her dislike for the animal was because she had internalized this and had never revisited it. Right. And I think, you know, that, too, is something we can consider if we are leaning in a particular direction, in a negative way, or happy really examined the story that we have held? And what is it like to unpack it? You know, maybe you just visit that, again,
Raphael Freeman:I think that's really I think that's really important for for, for any community, black, white or otherwise, here in the States not to make that that binary sort of, you know, analysis how the United States works. But I think revisiting those old stories and the beliefs that we inherit as adult is, and when we talk about this enough, but that's super critical for moving in, into living away. That is, what true is to who you could be right, those voices, there's a thing that I think is really hard, which is listening to your own voice. You know, I think there's a biblical way of phrasing it that sort of seeped into New Age. I think it's biblical, but people call it the, the still small voice within the small still voice within. But But there, there is an internal voice that we have that guides us enough, and tells us, I mean, I think gives us really strong clues as to the direction that we might move in not planning any kind of mystical or magical way. But just in terms of how our subconscious mind is processing loads of data from the environment, from our preferences from our bodies, in ways that consciously we're not aware of. There's a voice that is in touch with other parts of our, our process, our brain processing, that that doesn't necessarily bubble up to, to, you know, our consciousness. So so in that regard, I think that voice has some things to tell us, doesn't mean that it's always right. But more frequently, I find that there are lots of people and sometimes you can hear it in the way that they phrase their the things that that they say, there are lots of people who the dominant voice for them might be their dad's voice might be their mom's voice or sometimes a teacher or a bully or whatever. And it's crazy to watch someone disentangle that that still small voice within from all the external voices. Maybe it's the pastor or minister or with a Catholic color, like a priest or someone else who is close to watch someone disentangle and then hear their voice for the first time right you know, I'm in my practice, I've seen it happen at least twice and both times like oh, tears, right, they got to hear their their own voice for the first time. But, but because we do have a plethora of voices that are constantly informing Those. And those voices end up in a loop, they end up forming part of our narrative that part of our, our narrative loop. And I think that is hard to break away from. But obviously, they inform how we make decisions, our values around things like the medical system, so on and so forth. And if we don't examine that thing, then I think even moving into a more authentic I hate to use the word but into a more authentic and more us and less other informed idea of how we want to show up in the world, that becomes much harder if we don't examine, you know, the core set of inherited values, if you will.
Angie Backues:Yeah. And I think it's, it's hard to do unless you're very intentionally, you know, focused on it, unless you're very conscious of it. Like you were saying, you know, what your experience with people when you get to that place where you can say, Wait, whose voice was that and then becomes emotional. I remember the first time I was in therapy years ago, and I was saying something, and she said, whose voice? Is that? Who who's saying that? You know, because it was just a very, you know, it was a reaction where it's a phrase I had said, 1000 times about myself? What was the brief? Who do you think you are? And, you know, she said, what, what voice is that? You know, is that you saying that to yourself? And, and I got to the place where I was like, Oh, yeah, no, I know, whose voice This is so, and I hadn't ever questioned it. It was always, you know, who do you think you are? And that was something I would say to myself, right. So if, you know, I think that you have to be aware that you are operating, like you said, you know, we were born and we the first person we trust or, you know, our parents are mom and dad, and then we build, you know, our stories based on what we think about what they've told us. And we have to start to parse that through. So you know, as we continue to emerge, I call it complicated emergence. It's okay, you know, whatever is going on, if you're feeling a little, you know, it's getting a little bit tricky, and you're not quite figuring you haven't quite figured out how to do this. With a vaccination. You're still trying to understand how you feel about it. It's okay. We're going to all figure this out. Eventually, we figured out how to be quarantined, we'll figure out how to not be quarantined. Just be patient with yourself. Yeah, I
Raphael Freeman:think that's a good word, to be patient with yourself. Be compassionate with yourself. And wherever you end up is going to be based on the information that is available to you the belief systems and the trust that you have in place. And I think everybody's gonna do you know what's best for them, given the information that they have, and you know how they see the world and that's fine. We don't need to have judgment around that. Whatever equilibrium that we hit in the future that's coming, we'll be the one that we hit. Is genies not going back in the bottle? And we'll figure out how to, you know, how to live our new lives? We
Angie Backues:definitely will. It's gonna be okay. We'll get there.
Raphael Freeman:Right. Listen, if you've ended up, I mean, thanks for making it this far with this. And if you end up in a position that's so drastically different and like, completely understand how wrongheaded we are, let us know reach out on Instagram, which is always reliable and Facebook, which is a little less reliable, and you know, that's on us, but Instagram is super reliable, but you know, shoot us a message and let us know your thoughts and we love pushback. I mean, we love sorta you know, just just rehashing the, and being open and trying to update ideas and you know, open to new understanding. So that'd be amazing. If you rate us, hopefully highly on your favorite podcast platform, that would be amazing. Tell your friends. Let's get like some family and loved some hugs going on and just all fall in. We appreciate you listening man. Thanks for hanging out.
Unknown:Yeah. See ya.