Woke and Woker - When Cancel Culture Cancels its Own

In this episode, we talk about more than just cancel culture and wokism, we also talk about the changing nature of our economy, the impact of the gig economy, job security (career security, really) and the slow death of our universities. Where are we headed?

Transcript

Raphael Freeman: 0:07

Welcome to heterodox Americana. This is a show about thinking outside the box, and examining the conventional wisdom that informs how we think and shapes how we see the world around us. The question that we're ultimately trying to get at is, how do our unexamined ideas impact our ability to thrive as human beings. And it's our intention to unpack some of these ideas, take a fresh heterodox perspective, that hopefully leads us somewhere new. My name is Raphael Freeman, and I'm one of your hosts.

Angie Backues: 0:38

And I'm Angie Backus, another one of your hosts.

Raphael Freeman: 0:42

Today, we're gonna just pretend like we weren't going for a whole long, however, and just hop right into it, because we're back. So Angie, let's kick it off.

Angie Backues: 0:58

I was thinking of the story. I don't know. I have been talking to this young woman the last couple of weeks who she's probably what she's barely 30, maybe 30. And she's working on her PhD. She was a student undergrad social work degree. And now she's getting her master's in somewhere along the arc, her doctorate somewhere along the lines of social work, but like with a bent towards like social justice, things like that, right. So but she was out in the field, so to speak for years, like she worked in Philadelphia with different organizations. Some of them were working with the homeless, some working with like teens, like drug abuse, things like that. So she has a lot of experience just kind of hanging out on the street, and social work. But she was telling me this past week that she is starting to really lose her. Her enthusiasm for teaching like that was you know, you get a PhD and she's teaching a couple classes. And it's

Raphael Freeman: 2:14

like a adjunct or

Angie Backues: 2:15

Yeah, as a as an adjunct. And she said that she's finding that she's experiencing like, really high levels of anxiety every time she has to go into teach. What we eventually unpacked it was is that it's scary to be a professor. It's scary to be teaching on a college level, because she talks about pretty much every class there's some kind of like to call out around what she says or what she's talking. So um,

Raphael Freeman: 2:52

wait, this is someone who is already dedicated their their lives to walk ism. And now the the woke ism is, is backfiring.

Angie Backues: 3:03

I didn't say she dedicated her life. I actually this woman, I have great admiration for her. She she's such a worker. I don't know that she would know, she was actually kind of like, you know, saying she was talking about work culture. And she was saying, I don't know what to do with it. I don't Okay. Um, you know, there's a lot of reasons why she went into how, what she went into previously social work. I mean, you know, they talk about therapists to that usually a therapist is somebody who's had a pretty generally has had a pretty rough, like, go of it. People become therapists. I think social workers are similar. I think people that get into these like, intense helping professions, oftentimes, we

Raphael Freeman: 3:51

you were making a point, and I think you got distracted with my point. So you're saying that,

Angie Backues: 3:56

yeah, so she's has a lot of anxiety teaching now. And we were talking about how, you know, she was saying on college campuses, the, the, if you say anything that could be misconstrued. Or, you know, I guess one one of the people in her class was really kind of putting it to, to her around just even social work, but the person or class was getting a master's in social work, so I don't know. So anyway, it seemed like maybe that's where we can start today, this idea of, and we've talked about this on the show before, but what do you do? What do we do when we have differing viewpoints? What do we do now? I watched this, like two hours of this woman talking about getting called out on her Twitter account, and what she was doing about it. I'll look up her name later. She's somebody famous. My kids sent it to me, but it's we're at this place now. Where what do you do? You can't you're damned if you do damned if you don't. What are you Yeah,

Raphael Freeman: 5:00

well, there's an easy answer. Yeah. It's a very easy answer.

Angie Backues: 5:04

I think I know what your answers.

Raphael Freeman: 5:06

You don't apologize. And you double down.

Angie Backues: 5:09

I was gonna say does it start with two days? Because I've heard you talk about

Raphael Freeman: 5:13

you double down. I mean, there are lots of good reasons to double down unless you listen if you're so if you're so wrong, and you recognize how wrong it is, yeah, then, you know, only mistake, right? Always on your mistake. But if you want to look at the art, like the, the the mastery of how to double down for someone who has left of center, and it's important, right, because if you're right appcenter will culture can't quit, you know, I mean, like, nothing's gonna happen to Ben Shapiro. Because you don't I mean, like his audiences such that if he says something that people don't like, I mean, this is anybody This is Ann Coulter, Ben Shapiro, Candace will like pick anybody who's you know, Target, Tomi lahren, whatever name is. If you say something, and you, you know, you have an audience that is right of center, and people get offended, you just tell them suck it up, Buttercup, go home and like whatever. Like it's that left of center audience that people sort of have to worry about in you know, like, the call out culture, or canceled culture or whatever it is that you want to call it. Certainly, it's more harmful to the people who are already in that camp. So like now Franken comes to mind right? Now, frankly, I don't know what he thought was gonna happen. But you know, only mistake and then just, like, don't be politics with Oh, I messed up. So even though I think this guy's totally in the wrong if you look at what was the governor of New York, something como como

Angie Backues: 6:47

is it Chris? Andrew, Andrew Cuomo, Chris Cuomo is his brother.

Raphael Freeman: 6:55

This guy's like he's trying to he's trying to stay. He's trying to fight it. For however wrong his actions were the idea that he's just like, not gonna give in, I think. think somebody like Al Franken, who was far less egregious, far less problematic. He just caved too quickly. Anyway, let me go back to the person who I felt was the most masterful. And that's Kevin Hart. Right. Kevin Hart was like, Oh, I recognize how I messed up. Like, I recognize that. And it was wrong to me. And then he was like, and I'm apologize and want. And that's it. And every other time that people tried to engage me, like, Look, I'm not talking about this anymore. And he didn't double down on his statement or how wrong he was. He sort of he sort of just own the fact that I'm not going to be quartered. I'm not going to be well suppose was the term a quartered in splayed? They would like yeah, I don't know that to like, tie horses to the four parts of your body and just

Angie Backues: 7:59

right, you know, we'll say,

Raphael Freeman: 8:02

rip people into quarters. You know,

Angie Backues: 8:09

I'm not doing that. Well. He didn't hurt you. He pulled out of hosting the Emmys that year. Yeah, that was pretty controversial what he was doing, because I think that was kind of right at the beginning of like, when this all started to be pretty present, right? People getting called out. You know, I was the woman that I was referring to her name is Lindsay Ellis. And I don't know exactly her background. She's got a degree from NYU. I think in film, she's the one whose video I watched. I got caught in watching for two hours.

Raphael Freeman: 8:42

Woman your

Angie Backues: 8:44

earlier I said my kids sent me a video. Oh, okay. And she got called out on Twitter and then spent two hours like really just dissecting her entire career, all the things that people had posted about her. It sounds like it by saying it had I not watched it. It sounds like she was so involved in this call up thing that she had to spend tons of time trying to address it. It didn't look like that when I watched the video. It was really about her saying this is what's happening. Let me give you the lowdown of how when you get called out your nominally because she's like I'm not famous, but I have enough followers that you know, this is a thing. And really, she took from the beginning the beginning to the end of how this all went down. I think she started becoming an online presence in around 2009. So she was saying I have so much material out there. Like if you want to find stuff on me go ahead because from 2009 to 2021 you will find it and you know that's what she says like you'd get called out and then people go into the archives and then they just like massacre you with anything you've ever put out there. And of course you know all of us, anyone any one of us that have content on The Internet could be called out in some ways because, you know, in that long span of time, you're probably going to say something that's not going to sit right with everybody.

Raphael Freeman: 10:12

So, you know, to Jay Z lyrics come to mind. Jeezy problem are both on the same albums, the second album, but one of the things that he says that I really like, it's always stuck with me says you can love me or hate me, either or, either or right. He was trying to make it wrong. And I remember so once upon a time I had a modicum of were now, I wouldn't call it fame. I wouldn't quite call it notoriety, but maybe borderline notoriety in this neighborhood. As Philly, by the way. Yeah, although, yeah, I mean, just like just this neighborhood. Um, and it was, you know, as young I was working at this restaurant that was, you know, at the time it was, it is the fresh new thing. I don't know, I, I sort of got somewhere now, my people people knew me.

Angie Backues: 11:19

Like, you'd have one of those shirts on it says I'm kind of a big deal around here,

Raphael Freeman: 11:23

basically. And so people knew me people recognize me. And then I found out that there was like, this odd sort of dynamic that happened in the neighborhood that made it even I think that brought me some notoriety as well. So it happened in a few ways. You know, I have a little bit of a aggressive personality, you might say,

Angie Backues: 11:46

you might say, you might say,

Raphael Freeman: 11:49

yeah, I mean, that's one way of describing it, I have a little bit of a of an aggressive personality. So for example, I don't laugh at jokes that aren't funny. But lots of people out there who will like they'll try to make you know, that's not me. I'm not I'm not gonna, you know, you're not funny. But it goes past that.

Angie Backues: 12:10

Yeah, that's called a lack of attunement. For those who are psychologically minded. Good. I mean, it comes up.

Raphael Freeman: 12:15

Sure. No, I would, I would call it owning yourself.

Angie Backues: 12:18

Sure.

Raphael Freeman: 12:19

But, you know, I can't be fake. So so one of the things that happened was, there was a, there was another person who worked at the restaurant, who is also black. And I remember there was a, there was a husband, who he encountered me, he sort of confronted me in a local coffee shop, and asked his wife, is that the guy? Of course, at the restaurant,

Angie Backues: 12:54

you were at a coffee shop?

Raphael Freeman: 12:55

Yeah, it was at a coffee shop. And, you know, whenever some person is pointing to you, or pointing at you, and then asking somebody else that that the guy especially if you grew up in a hood, like that, that's a Yeah, that's a date. You know, that's, that's a signal some crazies is about to happen. So, you know, I'm on high alert, like, yo, what's this? And then a wife said, yeah, that's the guy. And the husband, you know, I guess he thought he was tough. Yeah, I'm always confused about these people who like, like, you come from middle class backgrounds, and like, you're gonna like, I've had more fights by the time that I was me, he doesn't know me, right? probably have more fights. By the time I was 15. Then you'll have in your entire life, like you don't want this. Or you better be from Marines or leg

Angie Backues: 13:45

and that aggressive personality. It's like Gracie.

Raphael Freeman: 13:49

I'm just saying like, yeah, if you're not a trained martial artists, or you're, you know, you're not trained and so like, bro, don't approach me. At any rate. He, he, you know, he confronts me, he's like, yeah, my wife said, You treated her poorly at the restaurant. And I said, No one is not a thing, right? Like, that didn't happen. He said, he called my wife a liar. I said, Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing. And, you know, he was upset because I guess she, you know, had dinner there with a friend and got like, poor treatment. At the time, I didn't work dinners. Oh, so Oh, you mean the other black guy? Oh, right. Now I'm offended. And we have a black guy who you know, I have a tremendous amount of respect for we look nothing like other than the blood, other than the black thing. And so like I you know, I explained this to him, but more importantly, now you've offended my honor, sir. I challenge you to do so he's all aggressive. He asked me to step outside.

Angie Backues: 14:59

I was worried After you had explained that wasn't even made,

Raphael Freeman: 15:03

he was gonna, you know, he was convinced that his wife was right. But I was calling his wife a liar. And I was just saying anything to get out of it. Oh, wow. And I was like, let's go. So, you know, he challenged me to step outside is if he wants to fight my this, this entire argument is happening inside of the green line, the coffee shop. Every other customers like what is this crazy?

Angie Backues: 15:30

You guys were being seen as you did this?

Raphael Freeman: 15:32

Oh, yeah, this was inside the coffee shop. It cost me inside the coffee shop. So I'm like, like, let's go. And I think that he thought that I don't know what he thought that he would challenge me to do to step outside. And then I would like a pose. I don't know what he thought would happen. But I was like music to my ears like, Oh, you want to you want to go? Let's have it. And so you know, I started walking, I was run to the door. I can't wait. Um, and I hold the door open for him. I was like, let's do it. And then all of a sudden his demeanor changes. Here's what I know, for a lot of people. They don't really want it. They don't really want it. So you know, I'm inviting the guy to go outside. And

Angie Backues: 16:18

you think that was you kind of call this bluff? Like,

Raphael Freeman: 16:21

I didn't even think it was a bluff at the time. But yeah, but that's what happened. Then he starts backpedaling. You start backpedaling and it's clear that he doesn't want to, and now disappointed now I'm trying to like egg him on. I was like, come on, bro. Like, let's do it. Like let's have it. And then he's all quiet. No, he's all like pipes down. And I just laugh right? Because there's a joke. At the same time, though. There are probably 15 under 20. They're like 15 onlookers who see the entire thing. So now in addition to my sort of renown in the neighborhood, this entire scene strike some people like the wrong way. And it divides them. There's some people who are on my side because it people like I don't know. But the the murmurations right, there's that word, the murmuring. The talk about me in the neighborhood reaches like a crescendo. They're like I'm, I'm being talked about in corners where I don't even know people and people are taking sides, right? Based on the information that they had through eyewitnesses. And it was this lovely moment where even people who didn't know me, like nobody was neutral. No, I was like, Oh,

Angie Backues: 17:44

ah, it's like the Hatfields and McCoys or something.

Raphael Freeman: 17:46

Yeah. Like, no, no, I was neutral. And it was one of these times where like, I think about this Jay Z, like, this is why I started the story. Like, you can love me or hate me. either or, but I'm fine with. I'm fine with people either loving me, or hating me, just don't be like, don't be neutral, right,

Angie Backues: 18:04

be neutral.

Raphael Freeman: 18:06

So that that's the one I'm talking about. That's the one Jay Z. Sort of, you know, lyric that that I remember and I think is applicable, I'll get back to the, to the to the, to the cancel stuff. And in the you know, to the college adjunct professor, as well, particularly because her situation is a little bit more difficult. But the other line that I really like, the JC says is he says no, I got shots to give. So come and get me. You want me Come get me. And I feel the same way. For me there are going to be metal metaphorical shots. Because I can defend myself intellectually, you know, but come and get me if you want to come for me, right like you. His won't be canceled. You're not canceling me. I'm not apologizing. I'm gonna double down. I believe in what I say. And I can back it up. And I don't say things that I can't back up.

Angie Backues: 19:05

Yeah. And I think to your point, just a little caveat, I think you did say if there's error, you can say Oh, right. I totally messed up there. I got it. Right and then move on. Kind of like what Kevin Hart did like, a long time ago. I said some things I shouldn't have said. I said I was sorry. Now moving on. Right?

Raphael Freeman: 19:25

Your you know, your your your college professor, though? Are situations a little bit more tenuous. Cuz, you know, she's an employee in a place that's probably highly liberal. I say highly liberal, just based on how, how college campuses tend to look right. And if she's at a school that has like a social work school, then the likelihood of her being in a very sort of liberal environment, and the types of administrators and other types of people who have to sort of bend to the will of the student body which is paying you know, they're paying the tuition. Her situation is a little bit more more tenuous. And I think unless you're a professor who also has a solid online presence that allows you to pivot into something else, then you sort of just have to acquiesce. You know, somebody, you know, when I think about professors like Jonathan Hite or, or Jordan Peterson, if things go wonky at their, at their, you know, institutions, they have enough of a body of work in terms of written material, as well as online presence that they can pivot into another revenue stream. But if your ad jumping, that's not the case. And you might just have to bite that bullet in. Do you know, just watch your mouth? What would you say?

Angie Backues: 20:49

Yeah, I think it's just, it's hard at this point, because this is the rise. This is kind of how, and you're right, this is a liberal issue. Right? Because you're absolutely right. Conservatives really aren't dealing with this Tucker, Carlson's gonna run his mouth any way he wants to. Right. And, you know, it's a kind of a conundrum, because they think, the liberal, you know, the, the liberals have a sense of their own, they carry their sense of justice as well, you know, like what you were saying initially, which I don't want to say that about this person. I know. But, you know, oh, you know, a woke person is getting kind of beat up by the, you know, the next level of the woke person. And if you're both, quote, unquote, woke, what do you do you get stuck in your, you know, your woke conundrum, like, how am I going to like, either either I acquiesce to this, or I find a way to completely validate what the weakest person says. And that internal, you know, that internal conflict, like, Oh, my gosh, I want to be more woke, what am I going to do? How do I get Walker? So I don't know, man, I think this is a thing out there. You know, Lindsey Ellis, this woman I was talking about, she was talking about the people that were calling her out, and I can't exactly I can't quote her. But she was saying something like, these were the people that were kind of championing for the underdog, so to speak, with their own voices that had nothing to do with the situation at all. It's like kind of the come out of the woodwork and say, You did this bad thing. Like they're not even involved in it. They just want to be the call outs me Well, you know, and she was talking about that, like, how does this even become a thing because these voices just start populating and it's not even somebody that's connected to the situation. They just want to kind of get on and wrestle it down. People

Raphael Freeman: 23:00

love, they love that particular kind of spectacle. You know, there's there's a scene in Game of Thrones. And if you're listening and you don't know Game of Thrones, then

both: 23:11

I don't know what to say. on Hulu right now.

Raphael Freeman: 23:14

Yeah. You know, maybe maybe in another country, but it's a it's a worldwide phenomenon. If you missed it somehow or another. I don't know what you're doing. How do you even get podcasts? Like what you know, you have the internet anyway. There's a scene where CRC is like just one you know, like, she's like the queen, I guess for a long enough time. In the Red Keep, and she gets torn down to the most humiliating version of a bad scene. Yeah. And you know, they cut her hair and it's just a walk barefoot through the city naked. That's right. She was completely naked. And the nuns let's just call them nuns. The sisters they're yelling shame at her the whole time when shame and but the onlookers who were reveling in trcs misery, they were spitting at her the throwing things that are I think somebody threw like a chamber pot, you know, contents at or just being mean people. Yeah. And that's the way that I sort of see those people who like are the they're like the the pilers on when somebody gets a, you know, won't take them, they get canceled. I'm going to start calling it a wolf takedown. But when someone gets canceled, and then all of these, you know, these cameras on, want to participate. It sort of reminds me of that CRC scene where it's like, Look, you're not even involved here. But you just want to be part of the mayhem and, and they're like low level commitment, you know, to. But it's fun. I think people like it. Well, I

Angie Backues: 25:05

think you're, you're right. It's being a part of the mayhem. But I think, you know, we've talked on the show about the virtue signaling stuff. There's also some something around that, you know, Lindsay Ellis was pointing this out, she said, you know, you don't want to be that next person. So you're, you're going to get ahead of the game, you're not going to you don't want to be the next person that's called out, you're going to get ahead of the game, and be, you know, virtuous, you're going to tell everyone else how terrible they are. Nobody wants to be in that position that they all of a sudden get, you know, they fall. So she talks about how people kind of dogpile, so they are, so they can stay kind of the guarding of themselves to ever have to do not have to be in the same position. You know, look, I'm virtuous, I call out things like this. So not me, not me, not me, not me, you know,

Raphael Freeman: 25:59

yeah, I can't roll my eyes hard enough.

Angie Backues: 26:01

did pretty good job right there.

Raphael Freeman: 26:03

All you have to do is like, just be righteous, just be upright, not even righteous, just be a marine. If you can just be upgrade, you have to worry about that. You really don't. And it's, it's advantageous to your character in any way to just do, you know, do the right thing, do the hard thing.

Angie Backues: 26:24

I hear you, and I believe you about what you say, in terms of if someone were to come at you that you would probably I believe you would double down. And I don't think at this point, from what I from what I know of you that this would be a thing for you. You would just say no, that's not what I I could paraphrase what I think you would say, but maybe I just will stop right there. Like you're not going to do it. Right. One of the things that you named on when you were saying what you can come at people with is that you have a pretty high intellect. Which I'm not saying, you know, you have to be like, beyond, you know, whatever score on your, you know, your aptitude test to be able to do this. But I think there is something about being secure enough to go into the argument this people that I've watched that don't take anything, even people that I wouldn't necessarily, you know, condone like, like, Shapiro, like, I don't personally, personally, I don't like him. I think he's awful. But you know, you can't take this guy down. Really? I mean, some people could, I was, you know, there are people that I've liked to watch him, you know, kind of have these discussions with, I think he's had a lot of discussions with a lot of those people with intellects, but he has me and he has ammo, like he knows what he's talking about. You can't really get into a corner, you can't back him into a corner that he doesn't know where to go, he's gonna know where to go. Yeah. And I think it's scary for people that don't feel like they have as much at their, you know, at their home at the home to offer in those ways they get scared. And if you can't, you know, if somebody is coming at you and you can't go toe to toe, what do you do you get all tongue tied, and you don't know what to say. I was gonna segue to something else. But I'm gonna wait till what what do you think about that? Yeah, I

Raphael Freeman: 28:24

agree. So, you know, Ben Shapiro is interesting. But there a couple of things that happened to his Ben Ben Shapiro, rarely, man, not never. So when he tends to be prepared, right? I don't think the guy's a genius. I don't I think he's really well prepared. Maybe a genius? I don't know, I don't think so. But he's really well prepared. He has a few cognitive tools at his disposal. So if you one of the things he'll call out very frequently, is if someone will start to drift the core of their argument, and then make a subsequent argument that has nothing to do with the premise of the first, this happens a lot when people there's a there's a term for it in, in, in sort of, there's a what's the word like a formal term for when people do this? I forget what it is. But if you start off making one argument, and then your first argument doesn't work, and then you just make a completely different argument. It's like, what are we doing here? You You're, you're moving the goalposts. So he's really good at calling people out with that. And if you don't have some sort of formal training, then like you're going to be obliterated or he's going to take it apart. The other thing is that he tends to be really prepared, but he also sets the ground rules for for his definitions. And this is really important because often people just assume that they're talking about the same thing. And if you don't establish your sort of definition ahead of time, and then someone else does First, now you're automatic it The minute you agree to that you're on the turf, wait, whether you know it or not, right, they frame the entire thing. So you step into someone else's framework. And either one you're aware or two, you didn't do it first, or you don't refute their sort of core assumptions, their core presuppositions, you don't refute those, then you're gonna get slaughtered. Because you, you know, so, so he's really good at that. So, you know, maybe he's a smart guy. In general, I think it's important to agree upon terms for that reason. And also to make sure that, that, you know, whatever it is that you're presupposing, or whatever it is that you're assuming is clear, or whatever the other person is assuming is clear. I think that that's really important. And one of the things that doesn't happen with, you know, with this particular crowd, the call out people is that they're assuming that the way that they, you know, I have another example of mine, but I don't want to like story as to death, to death. But there's a precept that, you know, there's an assumption that we're talking about the same thing, and the way that I see it, the core assumptions that I have, are true, not that they're just assumptions of mine, but they're true. And it's, you know, once you sort of operate in that way, then it makes it, it makes it hard to defend yourself, if you don't push against those those sort of core assumptions.

Angie Backues: 31:35

Yeah, and I think, you know, there, and not that we all have to be, you know, completely astute around all of this, like, how do we, you know, take, we don't have to take a course to like how to defend ourselves against color culture, although, maybe we might.

Raphael Freeman: 31:51

Yeah, I mean, if you're on a college campus, you might, but um, you know, I

Angie Backues: 31:55

do think that there's varying degrees of, of even personality types that will, kind of what I was talking about being cornered the corner you and one church in that corner. And I think some of that, is that what you were describing this, you know, starting with an assumption, and then, you know, kind of CO signing with that assumption that you've not really challenged it. And that's hard to catch. You know, we were there was a, an YouTube guy that does these, these dating, or no, he calls out women all the time, around what he thinks is a high level when woman His name is Kevin Samuelson. And you can watch him because he, I think he's, he's pretty aggressive. And in a really, I think, in a terrible way. Like, I think he is not so great out there. But women get on there. And this happens all the time. Like, he will start with his his rhetoric. And he gets to this place where he's just the, everyone's on the same while the woman and he looks like to me, the woman and, and he him, he he are arguing only his point like that the women, the women don't get to talk about their points, because his the way he presents is that the only points that matter are the ones that he's making. And so then he starts lobbing all these questions at these women or statements that these women that they have then to hold an answer as if that's the only statements that that matter. Um, he's a very extreme example of this. But I think that sometimes what gets happening with these color things is that you get in this position where, like I said, if you don't know things about language, or debate, or just staying with the core argument, that it goes all over the place, and then you start to look even more inept, because now you're arguing so many points, trying to backpedal, trying to figure out what the best thing is to say. And what you can see, oftentimes on the internet, somebody will do the apology, and the words that they use them will get called out again. Yeah, they did this and then, you know, did you read in their apology, it's not even a real apology, and sometimes that's true, but it just the layers are just they just keep going. Because it doesn't stay. It doesn't say contain to the argument.

Raphael Freeman: 34:26

So you know, Greg, I want to say look Yon off and Jonathan Hyde. I mean, obviously, they addressed this in, in a, you know, an article which became a book that they had written together, it's called the coddling of the American mind. But in that is, you know, somewhat that the demise of liberal institutions, but we're gonna see and, and, you know, to some degree, I wonder what it might mean for American universities in general. If we, you know, if we're thinking about the The the online, you know, classes that you can take for technical things like computer programming, and, you know, some some forms of engineering have been there lots of online, you know, courses that are available that people can pursue them and take that skill set and then apply to directly directly to couples, companies like Google, or Facebook or Amazon or something like that. And so, you know, that portion of, of society who might be interested in pursuing that career, they don't need, they don't need college in the same way they, and some might still choose. I mean, there are other experiences to be had, they don't need it, right, especially given the cost. And then you have this other sort of this other portion of society, that they have to watch every aspect of the language. And professors also have to be super careful about what happens there. And administrators and, you know, there's a sense of safety that I think that people have to work with. And that's ruinous to, to the intellectual culture of that college is supposed to be about. And then you, you know, you have to consider that people pay money for all of this. And so, you know, there's a, there's a critical mass of students that you need in order to, in order to be able to keep your doors open, you know, colleges closed. For that reason, it's not, you know, and so it makes me wonder about the sort of future of the halls, the institutions of intellectual discourse, here in the United States, and what that will look like, as people who who have technical careers, do more things online. And the people who are in the arts, you know, essentially people who are liberal art, they start to undermine their own sort of intellectual, you know, their own intellectual rigor, because everyone is too afraid to say the thing that they think goes against the received doctrine, or the received wisdom. And I don't know what that means for us. You know, 20 years down the road. If we're all afraid, you know, on the left, if if people are too afraid to sort of speak truth to, to the power of the people,

Angie Backues: 37:24

yeah. Well, I may, it may come out, you know, who knows all the podcasts that we've done? I've thought about that, you know, what we've been putting out? I guess we've been, while we took a little break, we've already mentioned that. But in a year of material, you know, I can't imagine that we haven't offended people. And it does make me think, you know, how much stuff does anybody want out there right now. And, you know, if you've got the thick skin, and you're like, I don't care, then it doesn't matter. But then, you know, there are people whose jobs depend on it, or, you know, who may get their reputation solid, and their business goes, you know, goes up in smoke, you just don't know.

Raphael Freeman: 38:04

So here's one of the things so I agree, right? Again, come and get me. Come and get me

Angie Backues: 38:10

calm and get referral, you guys.

Raphael Freeman: 38:14

is one of the things I think is true, and that if you don't recognize this as an adjunct, then Shame on you may Fool me once. Shame on you. Fool me twice. Well, you're not gonna fool me again. I'm not to know. So here's the, here's the model. So we're in late stage capitalism. Whether you like it or not, whether you know it or not, things have changed in terms of the way we distribute human capital. fixed capital works in a very different way than it used to circulate in capital works in a way in a very different way than it did let's say 20 years ago. Part of this you can see in there's a there's a guy who writes a book it's called capital city, Samuel Stein, his name horrible book, right? I thought I was gonna like it was about gentrification, just a dumb book. Way to idealizing and I digress. But he means what he calls a real estate class. Act, he calls it the real estate state, and makes like a somewhat of a decent argument for for how much real estate class affects politics in cities. Right. And to the degree that they are as powerful as the industrialist were, you know, in the, you know, before the turnover, and that seems like a reasonable. It seemed like a reasonable at least proposition to think about real estate moguls and real estate interests as having a controlling interest. In certain cities, right at that point, the argument seems seems pretty fair. To me, the reason that I'm mentioning it mentioning it, though, is if we look at the real estate class, and we look at the sort of tech class of a like that, that drive the gig economy, right? So if you think about like Uber and Lyft, and things of that sort, Go, Go puff that might just like doordash.

both: 40:25

Uber Eats, okay,

Raphael Freeman: 40:27

yeah. instacart. caviar, shall we name him, ah,

both: 40:33

we've been in pandemic, so. But

Raphael Freeman: 40:37

if you were to look at how that sort of like how workers have to behave, and even even Amazon, right, Amazon has a different model, but it's they have elements that are gig or gig ish elements, right, especially with the drivers and delivery, all that kind of stuff. But But the way that workers engage have to engage with those corporations, is often it's not. I know, it's not direct, it's through an app, you get paid. And some however it is they get paid. And, you know, they're just the broker between you, you know, you as a worker, and then some other portion of the public. And so even when we look at our employment rate, you have to consider that the people are doing, I've known to people who to work for instacart. And they both describe it as the hardest and the most unrewarding, and just like a hard job, it's like super hard, hard ways that you don't necessarily realize it, but then you're like, you're hard up for money. And then all of a sudden, it seems like, you know, I'm basically in Venezuela, I'm working too hard for the night, I would look at those pictures of the people like why don't you just do something else. But like, now I get it like that, when I have friends who do instacart it's like, there's nothing, you know, I gotta do all this, to pay the rent, which is super high, because real estate, you know, because rent prices are going through the roof, gentrification, all this kind of stuff. And you see the people are having a hard time making sense of their reality in terms of the amount of money that they earn, and then the amount of money that they have to spend just to stay alive. So if you're looking at an in, I know, I'm a little rambley, if you look at late stage capitalism through this particular lens, or look at where we are through this particular lens, then you realize it's really incumbent upon all of us to not treat the work environment and not treat our income sources, our revenue sources, the way they would have made sense 20 years ago, essentially, what I'm saying is that, that the model, the revenue, the income model that we had, we all go to college for like, we go to college for a particular model of income, that is, let's say, post Industrial Revolution. Till till, you know, I guess, the beginning of the gig economy, where or maybe a little bit before that, but the idea is that I'm going to get a job, I'm going to have a security, and it's going to make sense, I'm going to go to school for this thing, so I can get a job. And that job is going to pay me this much money over time. And it's going to make sense. And I'm already knew that if you can see the writing on the wall, that that is going away for lots of portions of the economy, whether you know it or not, whether you see it or not, if you don't have some kind of alternate plan, you're gonna end up in trouble, it's just gonna happen. And there are lots of, you know, there are lots of portions that there's a guy named Daniel Pink, he argues in a whole new mind that, you know, anything that we do that's algorithmic is subject to, to AI or being pre done, he talks about the some of the revenue sources that attorneys would have, through estate planning, and wills, and all these sorts of documents that they needed to be experts in, in order to, you know, in order to help people plan their sort of, you know, their estate, or whatever it is, will write. But now you have things like Legal Zoom, or, you know, legal docs. And, and the same is true for for tax accountants through really sophisticated software that will allow you to do lots of the things that you need an attorney to do, or you needed, you know, an accountant to do, right. And so because those things are sort of algorithmic in nature, it means that a I mean, you know, it seems unthinkable that, that the tax accountants might disappear, and maybe they won't completely but if you have a significant portion of what used to be their revenue disappear, because there's an app for that the And then there's a particular kind of attrition. One is like, How much money do I want to pay to be an accountant? You know, in terms of school, if the revenue that I might expect might be so small, you know, over time as these things disappear, we're like a large portion of what used to be lucrative disappears. That doesn't mean that all in the same is going to be true for lawyers, you know, once a certain portion of what used to be revenue generating, you know, activity, once that disappears, then people are going to have to consider like, what's the opportunity cost of going to law school? If it's not going to pay me that much, versus doing something else that might pay me more. So all of us, right? All of us, I think, need to have some sort of eye towards, you know, multiple streams of income or revenue, because the thing that we thought was safe and reliable and stable, is subject to disruption. Basically, any moment and ways that you didn't see coming.

Angie Backues: 46:16

Yeah, this sounds like a whole other show. You know, what, what we need to do to be to sustain ourselves in today's economy, the ways that we can't depend on how it used to work before, it just can't we were at a different place. Now.

Raphael Freeman: 46:30

There we are at a different place. Now. You know, the writing's on the wall. And, you know, I think people can generally see when the writing is on the wall. There's a sense, I think, a very bad sense a very mean, I think people can feel it deep down. But you don't necessarily know what to do when you see the writing on like, even if you know that something bad is coming. Like what do you do, right? And that's not necessarily like the easiest answer. And it's helpful, right? It's helpful to have lots of models. And Lord knows history helps. Having a passport and being able to get out of dodge helps. But yeah, but this, this feels like the end of a particular era. And I think moving forward. Yeah, I don't I don't know what things are gonna look like. I mean, maybe none of us do. But I think the thing that we can, is the best bet for you, here's the best bet, right? is you can buy maneuverability, like I think of money as stored, like stored potential for getting out of jams. It's like, it's like a way to store options. I mean, it's not quite that, but in some ways, it's sort of that it's like, you have more get out of jail free card, if things go crazy. You're hedging against entropy. I don't need a third way to say this, I'm just gonna go. And so here's what we can do. Get as much money right now as possible. That's like, your responsibility. It might seem like, you know, there are lots of people's like, I want to, you know, I want to work in this field, like, okay, cool work in that field, also, on the side get as much money as possible. Yeah. Which seems like a crazy thing to, you know, would have been a crazy thing to say, uh, you know, I don't know, I mean, maybe not, like 50 years ago. Lots of people just want to provide, but I'm saying that things are falling apart in such a way that if you don't get as much money as possible, and any of the bad scenarios happen, you're simply not going to be able to maneuver? And that, to me seems like, it seems like the wrong way to play this game.

Unknown: 48:52

Yeah.

Angie Backues: 48:54

Well, I have to chew on this for a minute, I get what you're I get where you're going, I get what you're saying. You know, there's a lot of value stuff that when you said that, that hit me, you know, my, how I hold values. You know, I grew up with this phrase that grew up from my home. But you know, once I became an adult, it was live simply so others can simply live that's kind of I held that as a value. So anyway, I'm saying it's hitting something in terms of value. I'm also hearing you say, things are changing enough that you're going to need options. And the way that we have options is to have money. That's what you know, I mean, even even if we look at something like health care in this country, you know, if we don't have money, we die of like a chronic disease. So I get it. And you know, maybe we explore that on our next show.

Raphael Freeman: 49:49

The next show will be about living simply, while rich. Let's

Angie Backues: 49:52

There you go. Nice, nice tagline.

Raphael Freeman: 49:56

Yeah, well, we're coming up on the 15 minute mark. So I gotta say, if you can hear this message if you're listening, thanks for hanging out with us. We certainly appreciate you none of this is possible without, you know, people were interested in these ideas and hopefully from an iron sharpens iron standpoint, we can all get better and learn more things and explore our world and live better lives. I mean that that's the idea. So,

Angie Backues: 50:21

yeah, thanks for listening. We'll see you later.

Raphael Freeman: 50:25

If you're not subscribed already, subscribe on your whatever your favorite podcast platform is. And, you know, follow us on Instagram. Peace.